06-06-2018, 11:03 AM
(06-06-2018, 10:33 AM)David Horn Wrote:(06-05-2018, 07:02 PM)TheNomad Wrote: All of this is subjective
That is the whole generational disconnect. Objectivity views things through a lens that sets aside the observer's "doctrine" so that he/she can make informed decisions NOT on what they already believe or want to believe but in rectifying things they don't believe with things they do believe. There is very little of that happening in our culture and it is what causes alternate realities and alt facts. To even say "alternate facts" and have that be a phrase we hear at the highest levels of those in power is insanity. I am beginning to understand OBJECTIVITY is a concept diametrically opposed to many, possibly unable to comprehend what is even the difference between the two, therefore, unable to BE objective because it means a willingness to stop preaching and start learning.
That somehow ALTERNATE FACTS even exist. Facts are facts, they can and are spun in any way possible to achieve the end of the person spewing those "facts". Therefore, subjectivity is wrong and only causes problems leading to Crisis and all the flaming doom we keep seeing in every 4th Turning. That you can't or don't see that is ITSELF proof what I am saying is true.
Subjectivity is simply another phrase for Culture Wars. And we have to endure a whole generation of subjective people who cling to their subjectivity before all else - even over solving problems. I think solving problems needs to be front and center and dogma needs to stay outside until you have a change to walk it.
My background is engineering, so what qualifies as objective fact in my mind is, perhaps, a more stringent definition than most people would employ. That said, there is little room for pure objectivity in highly complex situations. Why do you think there is even room for argument on the climate issue? If anything has too many moving parts that interact to describe how they do so in a sentence or two, subjectivity is a given. If anything, history is vastly more complex, and less tied to fixed rules, than any physical process.
As far as "alternative facts", George Orwell understood this very well. Alternative facts are not intended to entice people to believe that 2+2=5. They're intended to make belief in anything a dubious proposition. If nothing is absolutely true then anything can be as true as anything else. Not everyone is savvy enough to see through this, so it is successful far more often than it should be. For others, it simply doesn't matter. For example, if I hate the idea that burning fossil fuels is harmful, and someone puts forth "alternative facts" that say it's actually beneficial, I can adopt that position unless it's so roundly castigated that accepting it is embarrassing (or worse). What makes Trump unique here: he's able to say totally outrageous things and continue saying them with no sense of embarrassment. Eventually, they become part of the lexicon and acceptable … to some at least.
This is just the final phase of the indoctrination methods brought to us by Rush Limbaugh and Fox News, among so many others. If they lead to a disaster, they will stop. If not, then this may continue indefinitely.
Yes, all of that.
Do you think (well, obviously this concept has been around a long time) it is only now being defined in what it is?
There never used to be a word for taking heads that only erupt information of a false nature with doctrine, dogma and continually repeated phrases and sentences like some sort of verbal battering ram. At least, I don;t remember there being a word for that or an actual description or strong acknowledgment of THAT.
Is it progress the general populace is identifying something like this? That news orgs like CNN outright call it "lies" openly and without fear? If so, that's a really good step forward. You said not everyone is savvy enough to see through this. have to believe that even strong identification of this behavior by those with Power is a wonderful educational tool.
Someone might watch CNN clips and they hear this: "alternate facts" and "alternative narrative". They start thinking. This is a fracture of fundamental reality and I don't think people will allow that much longer. There is ridiculous blue winning in places they've maybe never have. It seems like a backlash on red for being so dumb with all that. But I am glad this stuff is becoming even cataloged for posterity, we might see what parts of this frakked part of history could be changed for the better.