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+---- Thread: A values consensus from Millennials? (/thread-19610.html)
RE: A values consensus from Millennials? - AspieMillennial - 08-12-2021
(08-12-2021, 09:58 AM)David Horn Wrote:(08-11-2021, 01:38 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote:(08-11-2021, 10:11 AM)David Horn Wrote:(08-10-2021, 06:22 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: ... I don't believe much in democracy because I know my views are in the minority in my generation. Since my views are in the minority and constantly disrespected by my generation, why should I value the same democracy that allows these people who disrespect me to have power over me? Why should I respect their views if they don't respect mine? Being in the minority in my generation absolutely made me much more hardline than I would have been otherwise.
Based on that argument, why should the rest of us accept your "right" to impose your views on us? You complain that the authorities won't pursue actions and actors you feel offend you, but seem OK with pursuing actions and actors that actually harm others you don't support. That's far beyond cynical; it's authoritarian.
How else am I supposed to react if my views are in the minority? Negotiating or talking it out won't work because if you give an inch, they take a mile. Individual voices don't matter, only the "studies".
When we are in the minority and unable to make the rules, we all have to ask: are we being denied personally? Inother words, are your adversaries forcing you to do something you vehemently oppose or forgo something you find essential? Being denied your "right" to never be offended by way others dress or being forced to use seatbelts in your car don't make the cut. We don't live in Iran after all.
I am forced to live in a world where my beliefs are constantly disrespected yet their beliefs are seen as objective truth. Christians are forced to do gay marriages now.
RE: A values consensus from Millennials? - David Horn - 08-12-2021
(08-12-2021, 01:21 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote:(08-12-2021, 09:58 AM)David Horn Wrote: When we are in the minority and unable to make the rules, we all have to ask: are we being denied personally? In other words, are your adversaries forcing you to do something you vehemently oppose or forgo something you find essential? Being denied your "right" to never be offended by way others dress or being forced to use seatbelts in your car don't make the cut. We don't live in Iran after all.
I am forced to live in a world where my beliefs are constantly disrespected yet their beliefs are seen as objective truth. Christians are forced to do gay marriages now.
Really? Show me any case where that's true, unless the person doing the officiating is a government official (typically a judge or mayor). In that case, they chose to be what they are totally outside the domain of their faith, and those jobs come with the requirment to treat all people equally. Religous leaders are not under those constraints, and marry whoever they please.
Would you prefer to have governement entities free to deny you services? That's the alternative.
RE: A values consensus from Millennials? - pbrower2a - 08-12-2021
(08-12-2021, 01:21 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote:(08-12-2021, 09:58 AM)David Horn Wrote:(08-11-2021, 01:38 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote:(08-11-2021, 10:11 AM)David Horn Wrote:(08-10-2021, 06:22 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: ... I don't believe much in democracy because I know my views are in the minority in my generation. Since my views are in the minority and constantly disrespected by my generation, why should I value the same democracy that allows these people who disrespect me to have power over me? Why should I respect their views if they don't respect mine? Being in the minority in my generation absolutely made me much more hardline than I would have been otherwise.
Based on that argument, why should the rest of us accept your "right" to impose your views on us? You complain that the authorities won't pursue actions and actors you feel offend you, but seem OK with pursuing actions and actors that actually harm others you don't support. That's far beyond cynical; it's authoritarian.
How else am I supposed to react if my views are in the minority? Negotiating or talking it out won't work because if you give an inch, they take a mile. Individual voices don't matter, only the "studies".
When we are in the minority and unable to make the rules, we all have to ask: are we being denied personally? Inother words, are your adversaries forcing you to do something you vehemently oppose or forgo something you find essential? Being denied your "right" to never be offended by way others dress or being forced to use seatbelts in your car don't make the cut. We don't live in Iran after all.
I am forced to live in a world where my beliefs are constantly disrespected yet their beliefs are seen as objective truth. Christians are forced to do gay marriages now.
A Christian church that refuses to recognize or perform same-sex marriages still has that right.
These fellows are still very much in business. Click at your own risk of offense.
It's the Westboro Baptist Church, the slimy "church" that Fred Phelps led, a hotbed of homophobia. I do not claim that this entity is representative of mainstream Christianity. It has a particularly vile name for gays in its website.
An illustration of how some churches deal with same-sex marriage is that Mormon-dominated Utah allows public officials to refuse to ratify a same-sex marriage only to defer the responsibility to someone else.
I am satisfied that some men can only love men and that some women can love only women... and I say let them have their homosexual marriages. That in no way debases heterosexual marriages. Don't ask me to endorse marriages between adults and children, people with animals, or people with inanimate objects (cars, guns, etc.)
RE: A values consensus from Millennials? - Eric the Green - 08-13-2021
(07-07-2021, 05:01 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote:(07-07-2021, 04:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Porn is not a good substitute for real life and real sexual experience. It's a bad influence. But is it the issue along with abortion to place at the top of a list of priorities? Is it the essence of the "wickedness" of our society? Must it be a matter for prohibition instead of zoning and education? I don't think so. The battle over culture is not as significant as the battle overHow will education change the issue in my generation? Only prohibition of most of it would work. It encourages perversions like cuckoldry. My generation isn't going to change unless most of it is cancelled.
1. whether we are going to have an environment and climate that sustains us and all life,
2. whether we are going to have an economy and health care system that works for most people instead of for a wealthy few,
3. whether we allow mass murders to expand exponentially because of our ammosexual gun obsession and permissive gun laws (guns are a much more destructive hobby than porn),
4. whether we are going to allow our president to start wars at his whim,
5. whether we are going to pour our resources into military and nuclear might or into social and infrastructure needs,
6. whether we are going to have democracy, or oligarchy through voter suppression and outdated election and government structures,
7. whether systemic racism and suppression of diversity and immigration will continue, or instead we develop police reform and an end to racial and gender wealth gaps and profiling,
8. Whether we can learn a truly new-age worldview that sees humans as interdependent within an alive and whole, conscious universe with many spiritual dimensions, which helps foster a loving relationship with ourselves and all life, instead of seeing humans either as dependent on one creator authoritarian God who is separate from us and our world, demands exclusive loyalty, and gives orders through churches and politicians, or on the other hand as mechanical bodies who might as well be robots in a lifeless world available for manipulation for merely-material goals,
9. etc.
Is this an ongoing shift, or just a consensus view for one generation that will soon pass to another one, and thus not really too significant?
But why should we focus on this minor issue instead of the others I mention?
Plus the issue of rampant conspiracy theory and covid/vaccine denial which threatens our health and our very lives for decades to come?
RE: A values consensus from Millennials? - Eric the Green - 08-13-2021
(07-08-2021, 01:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(07-08-2021, 10:19 AM)David Horn Wrote:(07-07-2021, 12:15 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: We can't say that the "crisis of 2020 is very different" from the others yet. The Crisis has 8 years to run, and the cosmic cycles could not be clearer that danger of a shooting war lies ahead in circa 2025. This usually happens toward the end of the 4th turning. Can a pattern be broken that has held so clearly? Maybe, but I would not assume this yet.
I blame Reagan for this ideology, and yes indeed it is a large part of the Crisis. It's not over though.
We may not agree on the timeline, but we do on the causes and potential resolutions. My fear, and I haven't wavered on this, is the failure to resolve anything more than the most mundane crisis issues, and leaving the rest to the next saeculum. Personally, I see a real potential for chaos but not for war.
I am usually right on timelines and major events, thanks to my inside cosmic knowledge; but not always. Rhythms repeat, and then sometimes they end or beat more softly. The indications are pretty stark though. We'll see
More reply: I think indeed the rest of the 4T will be about resolving, or starting to resolve, the mundane crisis issues, but that's a huge challenge. If we can start to reverse the climate crisis with new international agreements and more regulations everywhere with teeth and western support, defeat the Republican attacks both on democracy and on our health, and even help to reverse the advance of tyranny worldwide, and a partial victory in Afghanistan too against Al Qaeda in case of renewed terrorist attacks, while still avoiding a world war, that will be huge heavy-lifting.
I think what Monbiot describes as the new narrative involves changes very much like what I predicted in my books for the next Awakening era, especially in its early years. The environmentalism will be taken much further, affecting our lifestyles, with much more focus on community action and creating more belonging and better design of our cities and lands. This kind of new narrative would in this 4T be like a guiding star, but without much real progress toward its ultimate goals until The Awakening. But this won't be possible if the "mundane issues" fail in this 4T, and right now they are failing.
RE: A values consensus from Millennials? - Eric the Green - 08-13-2021
(08-10-2021, 06:22 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote:(07-08-2021, 03:32 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:(07-07-2021, 05:01 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote:I guess as a liberal I just think porn is not severe enough behavior to be cancelled or punished. It is also too likely to evade the law. I don't know if education will persuade your generation or not, but in the long run, it might persuade people. Your generation commits less crime; are you sure porn has not also declined in your generation already compared to older ones? I admit I don't frequent the internet outlets that millennials tend to do. Maybe porn having gained an outlet in your generation that did not exist before, it is availability that has increased, not the inherent appeal. I think community standards could be imposed on social media and internet sites, if it hasn't already. I block folks that put porn on the sites I read or send me porn stuff.(07-07-2021, 04:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Porn is not a good substitute for real life and real sexual experience. It's a bad influence. But is it the issue along with abortion to place at the top of a list of priorities? Is it the essence of the "wickedness" of our society? Must it be a matter for prohibition instead of zoning and education? I don't think so. The battle over culture is not as significant as the battle overHow will education change the issue in my generation? Only prohibition of most of it would work. It encourages perversions like cuckoldry. My generation isn't going to change unless most of it is cancelled.
1. whether we are going to have an environment and climate that sustains us and all life,
2. whether we are going to have an economy and health care system that works for most people instead of for a wealthy few,
3. whether we allow mass murders to expand exponentially because of our ammosexual gun obsession and permissive gun laws (guns are a much more destructive hobby than porn),
4. whether we are going to allow our president to start wars at his whim,
5. whether we are going to pour our resources into military and nuclear might or into social and infrastructure needs,
6. whether we are going to have democracy, or oligarchy through voter suppression and outdated election and government structures,
7. whether systemic racism and suppression of diversity and immigration will continue, or instead we develop police reform and an end to racial and gender wealth gaps and profiling,
8. Whether we can learn a truly new-age worldview that sees humans as interdependent within an alive and whole, conscious universe with many spiritual dimensions, which helps foster a loving relationship with ourselves and all life, instead of seeing humans either as dependent on one creator authoritarian God who is separate from us and our world, demands exclusive loyalty, and gives orders through churches and politicians, or on the other hand as mechanical bodies who might as well be robots in a lifeless world available for manipulation for merely-material goals,
9. etc.
Is this an ongoing shift, or just a consensus view for one generation that will soon pass to another one, and thus not really too significant?
Crime decreased because laws increased. People aren't magically better. I don't believe much in democracy because I know my views are in the minority in my generation. Since my views are in the minority and constantly disrespected by my generation, why should I value the same democracy that allows these people who disrespect me to have power over me? Why should I respect their views if they don't respect mine? Being in the minority in my generation absolutely made me much more hardline than I would have been otherwise.
That may be unpleasant for you, but your current support, and other Christian current support, for attacks on democracy, must be resisted at all costs, even including civil war or secession. Nor is there any justification for your conclusions and your disrespect for others; none at all! You are spoiling for a fight. And we will win! And your generation will turn the tide. The more you disrespect those you disagree with, the more they will disrespect you. Good luck with that.
RE: A values consensus from Millennials? - Eric the Green - 08-13-2021
(08-11-2021, 11:44 AM)galaxy Wrote:(07-07-2021, 12:15 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: We can't say that the "crisis of 2020 is very different" from the others yet. The Crisis has 8 years to run, and the cosmic cycles could not be clearer that danger of a shooting war lies ahead in circa 2025.
can you elaborate on this?
I'm not sure what you are asking for, but I have posted many times on this.
The saeculum and generation cycle is 84 years long in modern times. This was stated as the archetypal length of the cycle in The Fourth Turning. In accordance with this, Mr. Howe now says our current 4T will last until 2029. This is also the length of a planetary cycle which has accurately charted the return of the great American crisis, and was already known by astrologers before Strauss and Howe's discovery and explanations of it, and about which I had published articles about before their first book appeared. Uranus has been defined by an important philosophical astrologer Dan Rudhyar as having characteristics of the unexpected because it corresponds to the average length of a human life. That is exactly the reason S&H chose that same exact length for the saeculum, without any belief or reference on their part to astrology. The exact return of Uranus to its place in 1776 corresponded to the dates Strauss and Howe chose for the "crisis climax": 1860-61 and 1944, and corresponds also retroactively to crisis climaxes in two earlier cycles during King William's War and during the founding of Jamestown-- another birth moment for the eventual USA along with 1776. The next crisis climax is thus scheduled for 2027.
The Jupiter Return to its place in 1775 and 1776 every 12 years or so has also been a reliable indicator of US wars, in many cases. Almost all US wars happened close to the time of this Return. In this 4T, both the Uranus and Jupiter Returns happen close to the same time, because the next Jupiter Return will happen in circa 2025. Since I wrote this comment above, the USA has just lost its longest war, but this may not be the end of our involvement there because Al Qaeda may launch more terrorist attacks from there.